Hey Caleb, yeah I also struggle with feeling satisfied after achieving something.
For example I took 20 mins off my marathon time, finally breaking a goal which took 3 marathons to complete but by the time I crossed the line I was already dissatisfied and looking ahead.
As for doping, Justice serves everyone eventually and i’d much rather be clean and lose.
Hi Caleb, you really put me in a bit of internal noice while reading this.
First, yeah achieve something in life like an amateur trail runner means so much, but its not you're main goal, I often struggle with feeling completed but not satisfied at the finish lines, even when I recently run my first 100K, I felt like "okey, job done, what's next?" never enjoyed that personal achievement, thanks for putting that on the line.
Second, I always tought that the people that use something illegal to perform better and they don't even come close to what they expect, have the worst time. Imagine putting that much effort and also cheat, but not being able to perform the way you really like to, I mean, so much sacrifice mental and physical for what.
I appreciate the thought-experiment in synthesizing the downsides of doping, short and long-term, but at the end of the day you are still cheating, lying, and sowing mistrust. Might not matter a ton in the contrived world of trail running or road cycling but not a great trait for society at large. Also, Lim has a vested business interest to downplay it since his business was launched off the career of the most famous doper around.
True, yeah I got the impression that when he said it didn't matter he just meant from a competitive perspective, not factoring in things like integrity or ethics.
As always great writing (and running). After 60 years of running i am still looking for that perfect race or run....still trying to keep it fun i guess that's all I can ask for. Congrats on M1
What a fantastic read. I particularly liked how you framed “I won’t restate their arguments, this is just my take” - something I often struggle with when writing. It was refreshing to see how you acknowledged this, and it made me realize I’m less interested in the accuracy of how you capture their points and more interested in your take on it.
This is so thoughtful and so nice to read. Thank You. Lance’s coach has to save grace with an explanation (imho). the only other option is to say “yeah, we used drugs”. I understand the financial motivation to dope but years after the fact they are still denying the moral problem
Yeah, this could be a biased perspective and trying to convince himself that it didn’t matter, but it does bring up some interesting points. In the interview he seems to see the dopers he worked with more as victims of a corrupt system than cheaters themselves
I’m shocked that the founder of skratch labs would make such a remark. This could be quite detrimental to the company. Is integrity not important anymore? Sad.
I think most people experience the "arrival fallacy" (e.g. thinking they'll be happy once reaching a goal only to realize it wasn't the goal they were chasing, but the journey itself). I often feel that way after a normal ultra, so I'd be curious to know if you've ever experienced anything similar after winning TGC or WSER.
Re: doping, I think as long as there is an incentive to do it, it's important to have safeguards to prevent it. Whether those safeguards are preventative (testing of elites at major races) or punitive (bans, etc.), it's all about aligning incentives. If there is financial incentive to dope, but little to no downside (e.g. not enough testing), the cost/benefit is out of whack.
In an extreme example, if there was no financial upside to doping (i.e. no sponsorship opportunities or prize money), but significant downside (i.e. lifetime bans from trail running), it likely wouldn't happen. Question is how do we best align the benefits vs. the consequences so doping doesn't present itself as this asymmetric upside bet?
Yeah, I've definitely felt that "arrival fallacy" personally at least a few times. Do you think some people are competitive enough that they'd cheat even without financial incentive? I've wondered about that before for the FKT scene where there's no enforcement around doping but also few/no financial incentives.
I never feel satisfied brother with whatever I do in life, not even after reaching a big goal. It is simply the way I have grown up and because of all the other things going around me but since the last couple of months I am a lot of at peace even though I look forward towards the next thing always. I have simply said to myself take risks, whether or not I achieve that particular goal, time or place- it does not matter I don't have to stick to that result as at the end everybody has got the journey even though they don't have the expected result or not which means we should try to enjoy the journey as at the end if one don't get the result- they will be proud of they showed up and were present for the process.
There has been a lot going on about fulfillment, happiness while striving for goals and then there has been a lot of preaching about PROCESS vs OUTCOME. I totally understand there will not be fullfilment after winning any running, cycling, golf, basketball or any kind of thing. But would we be working towards that goal if we would knew that we won't ever achieve that in the future. We hope and preach to our selves that CHOP WOOD CARRY WATER, keep putting in the work and we will do great in future and amongst all of this the whole process gets lost. We stop sometime in near future & then realize we felt bad for not getting under 3 Hour mark or whatever it is for the individual. Isn't running 3:01 while enjoying fully not better than running 3:00:01 and feeling the worst for not getting under the mark. Keep redefining our goals is great for our selves & we must not attach our identity to any number or race. It is all just in our minds.
It simply boils downs to Control the Controllables. What we can control is our effort, attitude and energy we are giving to any activity. If we achieve, it is good and if we don't then analyze & learn from it & start putting in the work how to better it next time. I have kept myself in the shell since I have started running June of 2020. For the past 5 years I was too afraid if will blow in the race or if it doesn't go my way and my ITRA score was a mediocre 510. This year I ran a 24 Hour Stadium Run in March in which I covered 175 Kilometres. Then I ran a 19 Kilometre trail race with 1900 metres of elevation gain and got an ITRA score of 620 for that particular race and now my overall score is 613. I didn't even taper for this race as I ran 212 Kilometres in a week leading to race & didn't prepare for this race's specificity, yeah running training was there. Earlier I was too afraid but now I am taking risks and I am not afraid to blow up. Taking risks has to be kept the forefront as if a couple of races don't go my way and i blow up, let it be. I won't care about this in a decade & all the race results are a tiny blip in this continuum of earth's timeline. I am shooting for a 750 ITRA score this year.
Totally agree that it seems like the process is the important part vs the result. If you enjoy training and it gets you out in nice places or with good people that’s maybe more of the point, while the race itself is just a motivator to keep going through the process
Bryan Fogel made a wonderful documentary Icarus. Many can dope but never be great and not all dopers win. While I agree doping should be banned and tested for - especially for world or any records and when there are large money making opportunities - it’s not a slam dunk someone who dopes will win.
Hey Caleb, yeah I also struggle with feeling satisfied after achieving something.
For example I took 20 mins off my marathon time, finally breaking a goal which took 3 marathons to complete but by the time I crossed the line I was already dissatisfied and looking ahead.
As for doping, Justice serves everyone eventually and i’d much rather be clean and lose.
Hi Caleb, you really put me in a bit of internal noice while reading this.
First, yeah achieve something in life like an amateur trail runner means so much, but its not you're main goal, I often struggle with feeling completed but not satisfied at the finish lines, even when I recently run my first 100K, I felt like "okey, job done, what's next?" never enjoyed that personal achievement, thanks for putting that on the line.
Second, I always tought that the people that use something illegal to perform better and they don't even come close to what they expect, have the worst time. Imagine putting that much effort and also cheat, but not being able to perform the way you really like to, I mean, so much sacrifice mental and physical for what.
Thanks for sharing, and I keep pushing men!
I appreciate the thought-experiment in synthesizing the downsides of doping, short and long-term, but at the end of the day you are still cheating, lying, and sowing mistrust. Might not matter a ton in the contrived world of trail running or road cycling but not a great trait for society at large. Also, Lim has a vested business interest to downplay it since his business was launched off the career of the most famous doper around.
True, yeah I got the impression that when he said it didn't matter he just meant from a competitive perspective, not factoring in things like integrity or ethics.
As always great writing (and running). After 60 years of running i am still looking for that perfect race or run....still trying to keep it fun i guess that's all I can ask for. Congrats on M1
What a fantastic read. I particularly liked how you framed “I won’t restate their arguments, this is just my take” - something I often struggle with when writing. It was refreshing to see how you acknowledged this, and it made me realize I’m less interested in the accuracy of how you capture their points and more interested in your take on it.
This is so thoughtful and so nice to read. Thank You. Lance’s coach has to save grace with an explanation (imho). the only other option is to say “yeah, we used drugs”. I understand the financial motivation to dope but years after the fact they are still denying the moral problem
Yeah, this could be a biased perspective and trying to convince himself that it didn’t matter, but it does bring up some interesting points. In the interview he seems to see the dopers he worked with more as victims of a corrupt system than cheaters themselves
I’m shocked that the founder of skratch labs would make such a remark. This could be quite detrimental to the company. Is integrity not important anymore? Sad.
Thanks for the thought-provoking article.
I think most people experience the "arrival fallacy" (e.g. thinking they'll be happy once reaching a goal only to realize it wasn't the goal they were chasing, but the journey itself). I often feel that way after a normal ultra, so I'd be curious to know if you've ever experienced anything similar after winning TGC or WSER.
Re: doping, I think as long as there is an incentive to do it, it's important to have safeguards to prevent it. Whether those safeguards are preventative (testing of elites at major races) or punitive (bans, etc.), it's all about aligning incentives. If there is financial incentive to dope, but little to no downside (e.g. not enough testing), the cost/benefit is out of whack.
In an extreme example, if there was no financial upside to doping (i.e. no sponsorship opportunities or prize money), but significant downside (i.e. lifetime bans from trail running), it likely wouldn't happen. Question is how do we best align the benefits vs. the consequences so doping doesn't present itself as this asymmetric upside bet?
Yeah, I've definitely felt that "arrival fallacy" personally at least a few times. Do you think some people are competitive enough that they'd cheat even without financial incentive? I've wondered about that before for the FKT scene where there's no enforcement around doping but also few/no financial incentives.
I never feel satisfied brother with whatever I do in life, not even after reaching a big goal. It is simply the way I have grown up and because of all the other things going around me but since the last couple of months I am a lot of at peace even though I look forward towards the next thing always. I have simply said to myself take risks, whether or not I achieve that particular goal, time or place- it does not matter I don't have to stick to that result as at the end everybody has got the journey even though they don't have the expected result or not which means we should try to enjoy the journey as at the end if one don't get the result- they will be proud of they showed up and were present for the process.
There has been a lot going on about fulfillment, happiness while striving for goals and then there has been a lot of preaching about PROCESS vs OUTCOME. I totally understand there will not be fullfilment after winning any running, cycling, golf, basketball or any kind of thing. But would we be working towards that goal if we would knew that we won't ever achieve that in the future. We hope and preach to our selves that CHOP WOOD CARRY WATER, keep putting in the work and we will do great in future and amongst all of this the whole process gets lost. We stop sometime in near future & then realize we felt bad for not getting under 3 Hour mark or whatever it is for the individual. Isn't running 3:01 while enjoying fully not better than running 3:00:01 and feeling the worst for not getting under the mark. Keep redefining our goals is great for our selves & we must not attach our identity to any number or race. It is all just in our minds.
It simply boils downs to Control the Controllables. What we can control is our effort, attitude and energy we are giving to any activity. If we achieve, it is good and if we don't then analyze & learn from it & start putting in the work how to better it next time. I have kept myself in the shell since I have started running June of 2020. For the past 5 years I was too afraid if will blow in the race or if it doesn't go my way and my ITRA score was a mediocre 510. This year I ran a 24 Hour Stadium Run in March in which I covered 175 Kilometres. Then I ran a 19 Kilometre trail race with 1900 metres of elevation gain and got an ITRA score of 620 for that particular race and now my overall score is 613. I didn't even taper for this race as I ran 212 Kilometres in a week leading to race & didn't prepare for this race's specificity, yeah running training was there. Earlier I was too afraid but now I am taking risks and I am not afraid to blow up. Taking risks has to be kept the forefront as if a couple of races don't go my way and i blow up, let it be. I won't care about this in a decade & all the race results are a tiny blip in this continuum of earth's timeline. I am shooting for a 750 ITRA score this year.
Totally agree that it seems like the process is the important part vs the result. If you enjoy training and it gets you out in nice places or with good people that’s maybe more of the point, while the race itself is just a motivator to keep going through the process
You ever run the Jordan River Trail? Thought I saw you out there last week.
Been there before but this time of year I’m in the mountains :)
Bryan Fogel made a wonderful documentary Icarus. Many can dope but never be great and not all dopers win. While I agree doping should be banned and tested for - especially for world or any records and when there are large money making opportunities - it’s not a slam dunk someone who dopes will win.
I’ve seen Icarus a while ago but it’s probably time for a re-watch
Great writing, as usual. For a sports scientist perspective on doping, I think you might enjoy The Real Science of Sports podcast. They've talked about it a lot but here's a recent episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/trust-issues-doping-the-media-and-the-athletes-dilemma/id1461719225?i=1000718854228
Thanks, I’ll check that one out!